Here is a subject I'd like to discuss, but first I'll invite some ideas so I can better frame the discussion.
- Christians often tell me that I can choose to believe in God and/or Jesus, as though this choice is as simple as guessing which checkout line will get me out of the grocery store more quickly. I'm still mystified, though, as to how a belief can be chosen. Can someone explain this process to me?
- To arrive at a belief that God exists (in the way(s) in which He is understood to exist by at least a majority of Christians, if such a thing is possible), it seems to me one must have faith in a number of things that are not God: faith that the stories of the New Testament aren't fictions, that they were preserved in accurate form in the decades between the events and their recordings, that the Council of Nicea and the Council of Trent (as well as the earlier Church Fathers such as Irenaeus) accepted the true versions and rejected the false ones, that the various schisms through the Church's history were survived by the correct side, that the texts are translated in the proper contexts and that they are understood as intended. These things are not divine--how does one justify faith in all of these things just to get to the possibility of God?
- Why is God's ego so fragile He needs my approval, and why would He create so many souls out of nothing just so He could eternally torment some of them based on this qualification? (I realize this one involves specific beliefs about more than just God, but I thought I'd toss it out there).
- Anything you'd like to add to the pile?
I don't mean to pick on Christians, but they are the ones who insist most often that I need to believe a certain way.
7 comments:
1. The choice thing goes along with the whole eternal punishment thing. This also ties into your #3. Since we are made in His image and to get around the whole fragile ego thing God gives us a choice. If we "choose" to follow Him and His path we are rewarded, if we "choose" to ignore His path we are punished. This way it is not God's choice that we are damned to hell for eternity, it was our choice.
2. The true believers that I have talked to all know that the New Testament is just a book. They use it as a guide and not a strict manual. I know there are conflicting stories but if you look at the book as a whole single object it has good moral meanings. The truly good religious leaders have chosen to just skip over those parts that don't translate very well, such as beating the slave thing and such. I think the problem comes from the people and leaders that use this guide as a strict road map.
3. See #1 but in addition to that...I have never understood why my approval is needed either. I just can not see how my approval in someone or something matters in what kind of person and what kind of life I live.
4. Yea, I have something to add. All of my opinions expressed here are subject to interpretation and can change at any time, so if I ever seem to contradict myself choose the my opinion that you like the most and use that at the time that best suits the argument. I have an open mind and am willing to change my mind.
--Sean Gilman
Hey! Thanks for chiming in.
I like your interpretation of believers' positions on point 1, but that didn't really get to what I was asking. You've laid out how the choice is part of Christian apologetics, but not how the choice can be accomplished. Do you have any insights there?
Your interpretation of 2 is interesting, too. I love the dynamic between those who see the bible as the "inerrant word of God" and those, who believe themselves equally justified, who see it as a moral handbook written by desert factions two thousand years ago.
On 3 it looks like we're of a mind. It mystifies me, and it will until a believer can clear that up for me. I've read plenty on it, and I'm familiar with the academic explanations. I'm not interested in those anymore. I want to hear how individuals come to terms with these. I'm guessing you are, too.
As for point 4: Sorry, Sean. Once you state your opinion, you are locked into a single role. Like how eighty-odd years of arbitrary life can lock you into an eternity of suffering. HA!
Hope everything's going well with the new bean. How's Leif dealing with a little brother?
On #1, I might not be getting what you are asking, probably due to this thick skull I have. The only other way I can think to put it is that those who have made the choice do see it as a simple choice like what checkout line will get you out of the grocery store more quickly. I think it's a bit of a catch 22 in the faith thing and if you can get by it you have faith, if you can not get past that catch 22 you do not have faith. If I still have not helped out then I am lost on the question and not one to answer or even speculate.
Everything is going good with the new little guy. Leif usually just ignored Kalven because he can not play yet.
Jason, I only have time to answer your first question but I will try to get back to your following questions when I have more time. If I am correct you are asking how can one choose a belief. I'll try to give you the best answer I can but understand that when answering this type of question one is dealing more with vocabulary than with the actual matter at hand. I am Christian, and for me it was a choice... a conscience choice. At a point in my life through knowledge gained from church, family and friends I decided I wanted a relationship with Christ. I simply chose... I decided that I didn't like any of the answers that I was getting from the world so I chose something supposedly bigger than the world... bigger than us. And for me I got my answers. I believe its the answer for everyone. But there is a catch... you have to go into it with an open heart, and you have to be willing to go through hard times and change. Thats what I believe most non-christians do not understand about Christianity... and to be honest I do not believe many Christians get that. Its a struggle... it's not like you believe and then all of a sudden everythings perfect... Christianity doesnt fix anything... Jesus does... anyways... I dont want turn this into a sermon... check out blog if you want to get a peek at real Christian behaviour and thought (at least mine)... hope this helps... ill get to your other questions as soon as i can...
W-
Thanks for stopping by. Feel free to question anything you see or read here. Challenge anything that suits you. Or, make a bunch of jokes. That works, too.
I like the idea you’re presenting when you say “. . . when answering this type of question one is dealing more with vocabulary than with the actual matter at hand.” It’s an interesting idea that I’ll need to take up later.
Here’s the part that directly addresses what I’m trying to cover on this blog (at the moment): “I am Christian, and for me it was a choice... a conscience (sic) choice. At a point in my life through knowledge gained from church, family and friends I decided I wanted a relationship with Christ. I simply chose... I decided that I didn't like any of the answers that I was getting from the world so I chose something supposedly bigger than the world... bigger than us. And for me I got my answers. I believe its the answer for everyone."
I get that you were introduced to the desire through your church and the other people in your life—that doesn’t surprise me. It also doesn’t surprise me that you decided you wanted a “relationship with Christ.” There could be any number of reasons for you to have wanted that. I'm going to have to question your use of the word "knowledge," though, and address that later.
What does interest me here is your justification:
“I decided that I didn't like any of the answers that I was getting from the world so I chose something supposedly bigger than the world... bigger than us.”
Are you saying that you had been presented with a range of choices and you selected Christianity by sheer force of will? Like looking in a candy dish and picking the Mr. Goodbar instead of the Special Dark? If you had picked differently, would that choice have been as valid? This is what I’m trying to learn here.
Then you say, “But there is a catch... you have to go into it with an open heart, and you have to be willing to go through hard times and change.”
Aside from speaking metaphorically, what do you mean by “with an open heart?” Do you mean that I need to be willing to change my view upon new information? If so, I assure you I have that. It’s the basis of philosophy.
I looked at your blog, and I see you have some struggles going on there. I won’t jump in and upset the apple cart (so to speak) with my craziness. I wish you well. Come back as often as you’d like.
hmmm... these are good questions Jason... some of these are hard to answer... i fear that my writing abilities are not yet at the point where i can fully convey what i am trying to say... so, let me ask you a question paraphrasing a bit from a book i read a long time ago... lets not talk about faith or no faith... belief or no belief... i feel that we all have tremendous faith... the question is not whether we have it or not but what have you put it in? in other words... you had to get your beliefs from somewhere... you have faith in whatever it is you believe... are we not all believers?
This statement interests me: “. . .the question is not whether we have [faith] or not but what have you put it in?”
Interesting approach. I’ll agree provisionally that we all have faith in certain things. Provisionally, I mean, because we may be working with different definitions of faith. I’ll try to interpret your use of the word charitably.
in other words... you had to get your beliefs from somewhere... you have faith in whatever it is you believe...
I think for this line of questioning to be productive we’d need to be more specific about what kinds of belief we’re discussing. But to try to address your point I’ll offer the position that I get my beliefs (as far as I know) from experience and from processing my experience. I’m not sure if the sentence “you have faith in whatever it is you believe” is going to help here. Are you using “faith” as belief? Or as trust? Or some combination? Because I think if you’re asking whether I believe what I believe, you don’t need an answer. If you’re asking whether I trust that my perceptions of the world serve me well as guiding principles, we may have more to discuss.
Your question “[A]re we not all believers?” raises red flags for me. If you’re asking if I have beliefs, then (in a very non-Buddhist response) I would have to say “yes.” I believe if I take a step then the ground will be solid beneath my foot—but that’s based on experience. I would draw a distinction between supported beliefs and unsupported beliefs. I would draw further distinctions between different kinds and qualities of support.
I hope I’m addressing what you’re asking. I’m interested in where you’re going with this.
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